We got a date for FurJam 2013 yet?

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KaiAdin
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We got a date for FurJam 2013 yet?

Postby KaiAdin » Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:55 am

Like I said earlier on FB it's all about economies of scale (the dragons cheer!). The more attendees, the more thinly the cost is spread among everyone.
[/quote]

Economies of scale yes, but don't forget you start running into the fact that we're starting at the LOWER end of that spectrum, we're not going to Jump up from 150ish furs to 400ish in one year, so the even with your calculations (that don't consider all the extras) $24-30 might not be the lowest you can bring that for attendees, and that price would definitely influence how many would attend.

EDIT (to prevent Double posting):
There's already so many conventions around AU, I'm pretty sure the Market atm is saturated as it is... + the fact that if it *did* become a convention next year, it's coming a bit too late, we've just gotten, Furwag (WA), Bunfur (QLD), Rivfur(QLD) starting as conventions this year, so they'll even be more competition (and by competition I mean, not eveyone can attend each event, so obviously furs are gonna need to pick and choose).

Thats why I think that Furjam should stay as it is: a BIG Meet, rather than a convention... IF it does need a bigger convention space sure, I wouldn't mind that but as long as it keeps the sameish format (ie events around sydney, instead of at just at a convention space) then I think we can flourish and grow in a more controllable way.
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KatAclysm
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We got a date for FurJam 2013 yet?

Postby KatAclysm » Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:07 am

When I meant bringing concerns directly to me, I meant like, private message here on the forum, Facebooks' internal message system, so on. Pigeon?

Really, anyone, don't hesitate feel free to contact me directly if something bothers you. Or Foxdale.

If you need a reliable scale, we jump by about 20 attendees per year.
2010 - 80
2011 - 100
2012 - 120
2013 - 140?

This year was booked for 150 capacity. Trying to find an appropriate enclosed buyable space that allows all ages is quite a challenge indeed. People's creativity is why it still only costs $10.

Kai - You pretty much nailed it. Aside from the majority not wanting it, Australia does not need any more fur conventions a year. Sydney as a convention place would also be horrendously expensive, rooms don't come cheap. Some of Australia's furry population is already having to pick and choose what they can afford to go to as it is.

Fortunately for us, a park doesn't need extra room. Though once we get past 200, we may need to some crazy stuff as well as take out public liability insurance. X_X
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We got a date for FurJam 2013 yet?

Postby Spi Cybershark » Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:13 am

I for one - although frustrated by this a while ago - do tend to agree that FurJam certainly would lose its character if it moved too far away from its meet roots. Of course it has the advantage of being centred around a park meet in a big open space - still the case at Sydney Park - which can handle a larger group.

And put it this way, no-one would want to have a con if they had to hold it somewhere less expensive like Parramatta or Blacktown - you may as well hold it in Canberra instead. :P Even Redfern (think Australian Technology Park, where Animania's main Sydney con is based) would struggle for interstate interest, despite the fact that very few tend to wander too far away from the venue at a fur-con (in my experience).

Unfortunately Sydney city suffers from demand issues - when folks overseas think of Australia for events or tourism, their minds naturally turn to Sydney first, and it shows in both venue and accommodation prices.
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We got a date for FurJam 2013 yet?

Postby kat_aclysm » Wed Jul 24, 2013 10:27 am

HAH Blacktown or Parramatta? Both are very familiar areas to me and I can navigate my way anywhere around them. But that kind of move would generate a loud 'NO' vote from the community I think. People have tried making and organising meets further out west before but they've been very unpopular because furries don't like to travel out of the city.

Parramatta has a fantastic park and some awesome night-venues we could book nearby but people wouldn't go for it.
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We got a date for FurJam 2013 yet?

Postby Sebastian » Wed Jul 24, 2013 10:36 am

I really shouldn't be logging on while I'm at work but I need to respond to this thread promptly to curb the speculation.

Economies of scale yes, but don't forget you start running into the fact that we're starting at the LOWER end of that spectrum, we're not going to Jump up from 150ish furs to 400ish in one year[/quote]Please don't put words into my mouth. If I thought that we were going to jump from 150 to 400 in one year I wouldn't have shown all the figures between the two. 400 is a potential attendance that may be inevitable at some point if the group continues to grow. The general population for New South Wales from the 2012 census was 7,272,800, for Victoria it was 5,603,100, for QLD 4,560,059, for SA 1,650,600 and for WA 2,472,400. Assuming there's no cultural difference between the way the states cultivate furries NSW has the weight of numbers for furry growth rate. That's assuming that the whole furry community itself doesn't go out of vogue entirely (like the punk culture of the '80s), which I sure hope doesn't ever happen.

that don't consider all the extras[/quote]No, my model of figures doesn't include all the extras but I did mention "security, insurance, administration & overheads (Eg: electronics), and any additional entertainment" and then I said "However let's start by looking at the venue costs first just to get an idea." It's also worth noting that Kat's post said "upwards of $2k", and as costs increase each year due to inflation so at the point where we reach a con-requiring number the expenses would have gone up. The purpose of my model is to give an idea of where we are likely to be heading.

Accurate attendance numbers for FJ are difficult to obtain. The closest I could find was Wikipedia's listing of cons showing an attendance of 80 in 2010, and I'm sure we had more than this last year. That's why I think that we should start a more formal rego now so that we know what to expect in following years.

There's already so many conventions around AU, I'm pretty sure the Market atm is saturated as it is... + the fact that if it *did* become a convention next year, it's coming a bit too late, we've just gotten, Furwag (WA), Bunfur (QLD), Rivfur(QLD) starting as conventions this year, so they'll even be more competition (and by competition I mean, not eveyone can attend each event, so obviously furs are gonna need to pick and choose).[/quote]Only those wealthy enough to go jetsetting around the nation. To pick myself as an example last year was the first time I was able to attend MidFur/Confurgence and I wont be able to attend the coming one. Nor was I able to attend FurDu, much as I wanted to. Would I be the only NSW fur in the same position? We have Central Coast furs and Newcastle furs to the north of us and we're closer to Canberra than Melbourne is.


Pigeon?[/quote]
I have absolutely no idea what the word Pigeon means in this context.

If you need a reliable scale, we jump by about 20 attendees per year.[/quote]
Is that an estimate or based on records? If records, how were the numbers obtained? The only time I can remember signing in for a furjam is at the Saturday evening venues. Wikifur has only a partial record.

I for one - although frustrated by this a while ago - do tend to agree that FurJam certainly would lose its character if it moved too far away from its meet roots.[/quote]It's how MidFur/Confurgence started out.

And put it this way, no-one would want to have a con if they had to hold it somewhere less expensive like Parramatta or Blacktown - you may as well hold it in Canberra instead. :P Even Redfern (think Australian Technology Park, where Animania's main Sydney con is based) would struggle for interstate interest, despite the fact that very few tend to wander too far away from the venue at a fur-con (in my experience).[/quote]That is certainly a very valid concern, and the biggest obstacle to FJ becoming a con. (Cost of living and house prices are one of the main reasons I want to leave this country). It's also why I worry that a relaxed approach now may lead to problems in a few years, IE even a relaxacon may be unaffordable.

It might surprise some people to know that I'm not entirely opposed to the idea of limiting attendees; I'm ambivalent about the notion. On one hand it would be very unfair to people living outside of the Sydney metropolitan area, or those with restrictive jobs. On the other hand not doing so may make FurJam cost-prohibitive in a few years time. I just believe that more forward planning is needed either way.
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kat_aclysm
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We got a date for FurJam 2013 yet?

Postby kat_aclysm » Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:15 am

Pigeon = Pigeon message carrier. X3 It will be a one-way pigeon though, because kitty cats tend to eat them. >=3

As for past attendance numbers, they're very accurate. Having chatted with organisers (RayLiehm, AussieHusky, Foxdale) in previous years about this subject... yep they're accurate. The reason why they're not published anywhere is because we don't necessarily need to - organisers discuss this stuff with each other mostly so we know what to book for in future years.

Publishing them for the public to know about would be nothing more than a curiousity. Cons like MiDFur-Now ConFurgence and Anthrocon publish numbers because they're genuine achievements for them - Anthrocon got 1300 suiters and 5577 people in total.

FurJam is always open to suggestion and input, and there will be a Suggestion Box on the table at the BBQ/Dance this year. It will be organised much earlier next year. I know we borked up, and I concede to that. However, if that suggestion comes up at all, all I can say again is "it will be organised earlier next year". Early enough that there should be a date set and printed by the time FurDu's 2014 conbook goes to print (which is late Apr 2014 btw, if at all you're curious).
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We got a date for FurJam 2013 yet?

Postby Treemeadow » Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:58 am

I agree that FurJam should not become a con. I work for Confurgence- and we even spent some time wondering about a move to Sydney.

Not viable. No con survives in Sydney bar the massive expos.

FurJam is the inexpensive option for furs- you can come to a bit, pay $10 for a night event, take as much time as you want or just come for a little while at no expense. I mean, Kat's even throwing a sensitive-bellies bbq and that can't be cheap for them, donation or no donations.

To adapt to growth (I doubt we'd ever reach 400 in this format- Confurgence is in a much more convention-friendly part of the world we only JUST reached 500 in con-format last year.)

As someone who works on the "teams" of a number of Australian furry events, I can actualy confirm that event-clashes and DefQon, plus venue availability can all add up to a delay in announcement dates. It's not their full time job, but they put so much effort into it. I think it's really impossible to know just how hard it is until you're on the inside. I certainly can't criticise Kat's effort despite all the hurdles that kept jumping in the way this year, many of which I was there watching in disbelief as they kept getting back up and going "Oh well, we'll just have to work through it."


Organisation will occur much earlier for next year (Hey, it's already happening, you know. Ideas and finance plans are already being put in place.)

Sometimes hiccups happen. C'est la vie.
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We got a date for FurJam 2013 yet?

Postby Foxdale » Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:03 pm

^^^^^^^^^ This omg all of this. So much love tree.

Even though Furjam is only small and is hosted at a few pubs, parks and bowlo's it still costs 2k+ to finance. This is out of my own pocket. I couldn't afford to finance anything massive like Confurgence. Just a guess, but it probably costs like 50k and up to host that. But that's not really that bad. It is the personal time, energy and stress that Kat, Auri and I literally pay so 100+ other people can have a good time. If FJ was a con, i would be a burned out husk, the shadow of a former man, dust and ashes on the ground.

Even though this is my 3rd or 4th year (i can't even remember now), I'm still a n00bie at organizing and managing FJ and require the help of several amazing individuals. The dates may get released late, they may clash with everything, it may be unfair to everyone... But they still get released! The event may be unorganized, but it still happens and everyone still turns up and has a blast, so we must be doing something right! :p

I do apologize for the late dates and organization. Full time work, moving out, a lot of personal commitments etc. But i promise next years will be more like the previous years i have ran... Sorted out earlier!

~Foxdale
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KaiAdin
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We got a date for FurJam 2013 yet?

Postby KaiAdin » Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:29 pm

Ah mew, anything I've wanted to say has been said better already, but anyway:


Please don't put words into my mouth. [/quote]

Somewhat amusing since thats what Kat had to say to you on FB XD

Only those wealthy enough to go jetsetting around the nation. To pick myself as an example last year was the first time I was able to attend MidFur/Confurgence and I wont be able to attend the coming one. Nor was I able to attend FurDu, much as I wanted to.
[/quote]

That's my point, with Confurgence a few months away (and the Melb Halloween event) and RivFur behind it, Furjam if it was a con falls, into the potential problem of being too expensive and IN between already established cons, the current format of a Pick-and-choose meet up keeps the cost down costs.

Oh except Sirius, he defs gets around to all the Furcons XD


And while the Numbers aren't recorded, keeping a ear out, I do hear them being thrown out during and after the con, as far as I remember Spi has also had his Estimate that I've heard about, that pretty much mirrors the numbers mentioned by Kat [Side note: does this thread count as an official record? maybe the numbers should be ported over to Wikifur XD] And anyway, If you do headcounts enough you defs start to be able to eyeball them.. (ie like the coffee meet)
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We got a date for FurJam 2013 yet?

Postby Sebastian » Wed Jul 24, 2013 9:40 pm

Please don't put words into my mouth. [/quote]Somewhat amusing since thats what Kat had to say to you on FB XD[/quote][/quote]When was this? I don't remember seeing that and I've just performed a text search on all my E-mails from facebook containing the word "mouth". Or are you talking about my asking about the proposed 150 attendee headcount? As I've already clarified there (and got a Facebook like for doing so), that was directly quoting Kat's post above. Quoting someone directly is not putting words into their mouth.

Only those wealthy enough to go jetsetting around the nation. To pick myself as an example last year was the first time I was able to attend MidFur/Confurgence and I wont be able to attend the coming one. Nor was I able to attend FurDu, much as I wanted to.[/quote]That's my point, with Confurgence a few months away (and the Melb Halloween event) and RivFur behind it, Furjam if it was a con falls, into the potential problem of being too expensive and IN between already established cons, the current format of a Pick-and-choose meet up keeps the cost down costs.[/quote][/quote]Sorry, I've read that three times now and I'm not following the logic there (or the punctuation for that matter). If someone is unable to afford the expense of travelling to other capital cities then how are they affected by the other furry events? Or are you talking about the expense warding off interstate attendees travelling to furjam? Because Kat's already pointed out that furjam is not a major attraction for interstate furs and I wasn't referring to them either; I'm concerned about the availability of furjam for the furs that live in this state.

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